*
                 THE
         TRUTH           ENGINE

                       TRUTH ENGINE HOME                              TO ROSWELL CONTENTS                                IKON                                COMPANY/CONTACT                       

to page:    1   1a   1b   1c   2    3    4    5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12  

to next page

to previous page

________________________________________________________________________

 

ROSWELL

 

PAGE 4

 

THE "MEN OF THE 509TH"ARGUMENT

________________________________________________________________________

 

Here is another set of arguments that the skeptic might present  against my view:

 

Skeptic. 200  [vs. 87] First, we can conclude that the men of the 509th Bomb Group, which was based at Roswell in 1947, didn't know about any such exotic materials. Here is my first argument:

201 In September 1996, Kent Jeffrey attended the reunion of the 509th Bomb Group in Tucson, Arizona, and was able to talk to several of the B-29 pilots who had been at Roswell in 1947. 202 If these men had told had told Jeffrey that the government would have been unjustified in censoring information about any recovery of exotic materials, then they believed what they said. [ 230] 203 The men, in fact, did tell Jeffrey that such a thing should not be censored. In essence, they were implying that the U.S. government would, in their view, be unjustified in censoring it. 204 Therefore, they probably believed that the U.S. government would've been unjustified in censoring such information.*  205 Furthermore, if they fought in WWII against totalitarians, one of whose crimes was unjustified censorship, then they were strongly against unjustified censorship. 206 In fact, they did fight in WWII against totalitarians, one of whose crimes was unjustified censorship. 207 Therefore, they were strongly against unjustified censorship.*  208 If they knew about such materials, and if they believed that the U.S. government was unjustified in censoring it, and if they were strongly against unjustified censorship, then they would've told Jeffrey about the materials. [ 231] 209 But they didn't tell Jeffrey about any such materials. 210 Therefore, they didn't know about any such materials.*

My second argument to support the view that these men didn't know about any exotic materials is this:

211 If these men knew about such materials, and if they believed it to be more of a social scientific issue than an issue of national security, then they would've told Jeffrey about the materials. [ 238] 212 In fact, they must've realized [enthymeme, factive] that it was more of a social or scientific issue than one of national security, [ 239] 213 and, in fact, they didn't tell Jeffrey about the recovery of any exotic materials. 214 Therefore, they probably did not know about any such materials.*

And this is my third argument:

215 Its probably true that if Jeffrey did not get the impression that the men were acting, then they did not, in fact, know anything. [ 240] 216 Actually, Jeffrey did not get the impression that the men were acting; 217 so, probably, they did not know about any such materials.*

218 Therefore, for all these reasons, it seems highly probable that the men did not know about any exotic Roswell materials.*

Now, I can show that no exotic materials were retrieved at Roswell--the crash never happened:

219  If the men Jeffrey talked to had said to him, "If it happened, then we would've known about it" then, if it happened, they probably would've known about it. [ 241] 220 They did in fact say precisely that. They said, "If it happened, then we would've known about it."

221 Therefore, If it happened, they would've known about it.*   222 Above (218) we saw that the men probably didn't know about any exotic materials having been recovered. [ 243] 223 Therefore, It probably didn't happen.*

Here's another argument:

224 Probably, if such a significant and dramatic event had happened, then the men of the 509th would have discussed it among themselves (they had secret clearances). [ 244] 225 And if they discussed it among themselves (i.e. one passing the information to others, etc.) then they would have come to know about the exotic materials. 226 Therefore, probably, if such a significant and dramatic event had happened, they would have known about it.*   227 But above (218) we saw that they didn't know about it. [ 245] 228 Therefore, it probably didn't happen.*

229 These, then are the reasons that show that it very probably didn't happen.*

 

In the arguments above (201-218), the skeptic first tries to prove that the men of the 509th to whom Kent Jeffrey spoke did not know about any exotic Roswell materials. The skeptic's conclusion here that the men probably didn't know may or may not be correct, but his arguments here do not prove it, and they contain false and unproven statements.

230  [vs. 202] First, he claims that if these men had told had told Jeffrey that the government would have been unjustified in censoring information about any recovery of exotic materials, then they believed what they said. But this is unproven, since it could be that if they'd known about such materials, then they might have, to throw Jeffrey off the track, said that they believed that the government would be wrong to censor such information, even though they didn't believe it.

231 [vs. 208] Second, the skeptic's claim (208) that "if [the men of the 509th] knew about such materials, and if they believed that the U.S. government was unjustified in censoring it, and if they were strongly against unjustified censorship, then they would've told Jeffrey about the materials" strikes me not just as unproven, but as false. These men were loyal Americans, and even if they had known about such materials, even if they'd thought that the U.S. government was unjustified in censoring the information, and even if they were strongly against unjustified censorship, they still probably would not have told Jeffrey, who had no need to know, about it. They would have equated spilling the beans with disloyalty--they would not have presumed to second guess the censors, even if they had their own views about the justifiability of censorship in this case.

232 My point that, even if these men had known about the exotic materials, they would not have told Jeffrey is also supported by the fact that these were all men whose disposition to keep secrets had been demonstrated: 233 "When the 509th was formed with the purpose of dropping the atomic bombs," the men were shown "classified" equipment and orders, and then were given a leave. During this leave, they were tracked and engaged in conversation. Those who mentioned anything "classified" were dismissed from the unit. Therefore, the men who were left in the unit were those who had taken their obligation to protect classified information very seriously. *  234 So, even if these men had known about exotic recovered materials, they would not have told Jeffrey.

235 Here's another argument: if these men had been given explicit orders not to discuss the matter of the exotic materials with anyone, then even if they'd known something, they would not have told Jeffrey about it. 236 In fact, there's evidence that orders did come from the strategic Air Command directing the officers of the Eighth Air Force and the 509th Bomb Group not to discuss this matter among themselves: According to Colonel (later brigadier general) Thomas DuBose, recorded on video tape on August 10, 1990, Major General Clements McMullen, deputy commander of SAC, called him and said, "Nobody, and I must stress this, no one was to discuss [the Roswell incident] with their wives, me, with Ramey, with anyone."*    237 Therefore, even if they'd known about exotic materials, they wouldn't have told Jeffrey about it.*

238 [vs. 211] The skeptic here claims (see 211) that "if these men knew about such materials, and if they believed it to be more of a social scientific issue than an issue of national security, then they would've told Jeffrey about the materials." But this claim seems false. For the reasons I articulated in 231-237, it seems clear that even if the men of the 509th knew about the exotic materials, and even if they thought the matter was more of a social or scientific issue than one of national security, they still would not have told Jeffrey about the materials.

239 [vs. 212] And the skeptic says (see 212) that, in fact, [the men of the 509th] must've realized that it was more of a social or scientific issue than one of national security. But this seems false. The men of the 509th would surely have seen the national security implications of the recovery of exotic materials, even if Jeffrey didn't see them. Friedman* points to three clear reasons to regard it as such: (1) the alien vehicle involved had exotic flight capability whose technology would be useful to us; or, (2) the technology could be useful to our enemies; (3) if the aliens were attacking the earth, it would be useful to know what their weapons were.

240 [vs. 215] The skeptic says (see 215) that "it's probably true that if Jeffrey did not get the impression that the men were acting, then they did not, in fact, know anything." But this claim is simply not proven. The men could have been good actors--part of making a cover up work is covering up convincingly.

So, the skeptic fails to prove that the men of the 509th did not know about any exotic materials having been recovered from the Foster ranch. But he then triesto prove that the incident did not happen at all.

241 [vs. 219] The skeptic claims (see 219) that "if the men Jeffrey talked to had said to him, 'If it happened, then we would've known about it' then, if it happened, they probably would've known about it." This claim seems not clearly true. It might be true--it's possible that the men knew about the exotic materials but wanted to convince Jeffrey that nothing happened; thus they would've denied knowing anything while pointing out that they would've known. But it seems that it's also possible that skeptic's point here (219) is false; its possible that they didn't know even though they said that they would've known.

242 Keven Randle says "...those former members of the 509th who believe that had something like this happened they would have heard about it must rethink their theory. Many military units have secrets that are shared only with those who have a need to know. To suggest a sharing of classified material with those who are not cleared to hear it reveals a misunderstanding of how this works. And remember, DuBose acknowledged that an order had been given."*

243 [vs. 222] And, as part of this same argument, the skeptic claims (see 222) that he proved that "the men probably didn't know about any exotic materials having been recovered." But my comments above (230-240) show that this has not been proven. It's not been proven that the men did not know.

244  [vs. 224] The skeptic claims (see 224) that "probably, if such a significant and dramatic event had happened, then the men of the 509th would have discussed it among themselves." But this is not proven. The fact that orders, it seems, had been given not to discuss the matter [see 270], and the fact that these men had been chosen for their unit because they had demonstrated that they would keep secrets [see 233] argues against the idea that if the event had happened, they would've discussed it among themselves (though it doesn't argue against this as strongly as it argues against their telling Jeffrey.) 245 [vs. 227] And, as part of this same argument, the skeptic claim (see 227) that he proved that the men probably didn't know about any exotic materials having been recovered. But my comments above (230-240) show that this has not been proven. It's not been proven that the men did not know.

____________________________________________________________________________________

 

Notes

204. 202, 203 MP

207. 205, 206 MP

210. 208, 204, 207, 209 CMT

214. 211, 212, 213 CMT

217. 215, 216 MP

218. 201-217 .?inductive accumulation.

221. 219, 220 MP

223. 221, 222(=218) MT

226. 224, 225 HS

228. 226, 227(=218) MT

229. 219- 228 ?inductive accumulation] [from an argument by Kent Jeffrey: J pp. 7-8

233. Kevin Randle, Randle Responds to Jeffrey on Roswell. MUFON UFO Journal, July 1997 #351, p. 9

236. Kevin Randle: Randle Responds to Jeffrey on Roswell, MUFON UFO Journal, July 1997 #351, p.7

237. 235, 236 MP

239. Kent Jeffrey and Roswell 7-21-97

242. see 236. Kevin Randle, Randle responds to Jeffrey on Roswell, MUFON UFO Journal, July 1997 #351, pg7

 

____________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

to page:    1   1a   1b   1c   2    3    4    5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12  

to next page

to previous page

 

 

© Richard Crist, 2007